Why am I struggling to hear scale degrees?

Home Ear Training Forums Ear Training Relative Pitch Why am I struggling to hear scale degrees?

This topic contains 31 replies, has 4 voices, and was last updated by Profile photo of blanche_minim-2 blanche_minim-2 8 years ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 32 total)
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  • #19548
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    The scale degree training software that I’m doing is coming along and I’ll keep doing it, but I am sidetracked by a new approach to ear training (at least it’s new to me). I wanted to learn improvisation from my guitar teacher and one of the things he asks of me is to sing what I play. He demonstrated it and he did it very well. He asks me to sing chromaticism as well. I did a little research over the weekend and I found out that Steve Vai, Janek Gwizdala, and many musicians use this type of technique. I tried it for myself and I seem disconnected, either from my voice or instrument. When I sing, I sometimes play the wrong notes.

    Is this natural for a first timer? Is singing what you play, a good approach to ear training?

    #19552

    Is singing what you play, a good approach to ear training?

    Absolutely, yes. Every musician who wants better ears should be singing. This article explains why!

    In short, the reason is that your voice is intimately tied to your sense of hearing, so it’s a very powerful way to train your ears.

    Brad Mavin’s series on playing guitar by ear includes some great exercises for this.

    When I sing, I sometimes play the wrong notes. Is this natural for a first timer?

    Of course! You won’t be perfect immediately. There are two possible causes:

    1. Your ears aren’t quite getting the right notes internalised. Practice relative pitch and audiation to help with this.
    2. Your voice isn’t hitting the notes you intend. This comes down to vocal pitch control. Learn more about this here.

    I think this will really help you with your scale degree relative pitch, and make it more directly practical for your guitar improvisation. Keep it up!

    #19610
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    This is just a follow up of singing what you play. Can sight-singing help improve your recognition of scale degrees?

    #19631

    Hi Jason,

    It normally works the other way around. By having a good ear for scale degrees it becomes much easier to look at a sheet of music and be able to audiate the notes and then sing them. This is what motivates a lot of singers to do relative pitch ear training.

    Of course, it can work the other way too – if you are already a good sight-singer you can start to think about what you’re doing in terms of scale degrees and so develop your ear each time you sight-read some music.

    #19752
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    I may recognize scale degrees in an ear training exercise, but when it comes to real music(such as music on my ipod or on the radio) I can’t recognize it. When I hear a melody on the radio, out of trial and error, I am able to figure it out by noodling around. I may recognize a melody because it is familiar to me, but the scale degrees, I can’t. It is definitely using scale degrees, but for some reason, I can’t recognize it.

    Is there an explanation for it? I have been training scale degrees for a while and I might end up in a few years still the same.

    #19759

    Hi Chris,
    I may recognize scale degrees in an ear training exercise, but when it comes to real music(such as music on my ipod or on the radio) I can’t recognize it.

    That’s quite normal. The short answer is: you’re trying something too complex too soon.

    When you’re doing your scale degree training, you:
    1. Hear the scale first, so have a clear sense of your key center
    2. Restrict your task to particular scale degrees
    3. Restrict your task to a single instrument
    4. Restrict your task to single notes with no surrounding harmony or other musical distractions
    5. Listen to a moderate speed melody.

    When you try to transcribe general music heard on the radio you are relaxing all of these restrictions at once! You could hear any note on any instrument, in the midst of all sorts of other tunes and harmonies and percussion, in a key center which could be unclear or even modulating, and the notes could be coming thick and fast…

    It’s a bit like starting to learn vocabulary in a foreign language, and then picking up a random book in a bookstore in that language and being frustrated that you can’t understand it all!

    The process will take time. As you train, you will relax each of the restrictions mentioned above, building a more versatile and robust sense of relative pitch. Soon you will find that simple songs (e.g. rock and roll or children’s songs) becomes quite manageable for you, and eventually you will indeed be able to hear any song on the radio and know what notes are being played.

    Try to be patient and focus on the steps and progress which takes you from here to there, and not be too frustrated or discouraged that you aren’t there yet :)

    #19782
    Profile photo of kristin_r
    kristin_r
    Participant

    I have had several years of musical training and have practiced lots of scales so I understand the concept of intervals. I can easily hear the intervals while listening to songs but I do not recall ever being taught about relative pitch before. I am very interested in practicing this. I think it would be very helpful for me.

    I can hear when the pitch is off while playing a musical instrument but it seems to be much more difficult to hear the sharps or flats while singing. I sang in front of another musician once and he told me I was flat. I had a crush on this guy and I was so embarrassed I wanted to go hide! I had no idea my singing was off since I can usually hear it right away in the instruments. I have never had any voice training other than singing in chorus way back in middle school.

    #22192
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    I am in a road trip so far and because of that, I have been listening to a lot of new music lately in our van, specifically classical music and jazz music and little bit of rock music.

    I am able to consistently recognize a ‘ti’ going to a ‘do’ and a ‘re’ going to a ‘do’. At the end of the music, I can tell that the chord and the note is going to the tonic. It’s not a fluke.

    I noticed that there are new posts and I’m not sure if you’ll respond. I’ll be glad if you will.

    I haven’t done ‘ti’ yet on my scale degree training, but I heard it a lot during the time I was taking Harmony. The professor will say the Leading note goes to the tonic and he demonstrates to the piano by sound.

    I hope this is the start of something great.

    #22373

    Hi @blanche_minim,

    That’s great news! When you start to notice your ear training paying off as you listen to real music, it all gets much more exciting… :)

    As I think you’ve figured out, the tonic (“do”) is a really strong anchor for you to make sense of the notes in a song. The “re” and “ti” notes are common approach notes which resolve to the “do”. Many musicians find these are familiar sounds from playing scales, as the do-re and ti-do transitions sound like the start and end of a major scale.

    I’m not sure if you’re travelling with other people, but if not (or they don’t mind) I’d encourage you to try singing along once you identify the tonic. You know that’s “do” and it sounds like you can probably find the “ti” and/or “re” from there. Try singing “do, re, mi, re, do” and even “do, mi, so, mi so” (up and down the tonic chord). In this way you can start to explore the scale with your voice and ears and you will start to recognise more and more notes of that scale.

    Keep up the good work!

    Hi Chris,
    I am in a road trip so far and because of that, I have been listening to a lot of new music lately in our van, specifically classical music and jazz music and little bit of rock music.

    I am able to consistently recognize a ‘ti’ going to a ‘do’ and a ‘re’ going to a ‘do’. At the end of the music, I can tell that the chord and the note is going to the tonic. It’s not a fluke.

    I noticed that there are new posts and I’m not sure if you’ll respond. I’ll be glad if you will.

    I haven’t done ‘ti’ yet on my scale degree training, but I heard it a lot during the time I was taking Harmony. The professor will say the Leading note goes to the tonic and he demonstrates to the piano by sound.

    I hope this is the start of something great.

    #27617
    Profile photo of alexx
    alexx
    Participant

    I have the same exact issue. It’s so frustrating. I take piano lessons from a piano & vocal teacher. Although I don’t sing when I play or do any vocal training, she says my voice has good tone, I can sing in pitch, & I can copy notes I her on the piano 100%. When it comes to ear training, sometimes I’m right on when finding notes, other times I’m an octave away but on right note. Ugh.

    #29886
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    Long time no see. Happy New Year. The hard drive on my desktop and the settings got altered so I wasn’t able to use my software for 3 months. I was in school so I had no time taking it to the computer shop. Long story short, I had to re-learn all the solfege, but I was able to get it back in a short period of time.

    I am progressing in my scale degree recognition. The 7 diatonic scale degrees are an ongoing process, but I feel that I am ready to introduce some Chromatic solfege. I will start with the b7. If I start with the b2 the do tonality with the flat2 will mess me up.

    I got the Ear Training for instrumentalists by Matt Glaser as a Christmas gift and the program blends well with my software. I am stuck at CD 2 because there are exercises in Chromatic solfege.

    Once I master the chromatic solfege, I can move on to CD 3.

    I don’t just listen to the pitches, I sing them simultaneously on my instrument.

    #30107

    Hi Jason,

    A Happy New Year to you too! It’s great to hear of your recent progress.

    Taking some time off from ear training can cause a backslide, but typically you’ll find (as you did in this case) that it all comes back to you far quickly than the original learning. The more you practice the truer this becomes and the more relaxed you can be about taking breaks.

    Singing while playing notes is a great practice technique. Brad Mavin recommends some exercises for this in his video tutorials on playing by ear.

    We’re working on some new solfa MP3s for our ear training exercises page, to complement our Starting Solfa series. They will focus on the pentatonic and diatonic to begin with, but we’ll be developing it beyond that too. Stay tuned!

    Keep up the good work, and keep us posted on your progress!

    #30500
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,

    I recently discovered a unique feature in my software. It doesn’t just deal with the Major Scale, it also deals with Harmonic Minor, Modes, Whole-tone, diminished, Pentatonic, Minor Pentatonic, and Blues Scales.

    I have been having fun practicing to hear the blues scale, because it sounds bluesy.

    I haven’t mastered all the scale degrees yet and I want to practice on the whole tone and diminished scales. Should I start practicing the whole tone and diminished scales?

    #30544

    Hi again!

    To be honest, I would advise against it. The pentatonic and blues scales are fun to experiment with because of their simplicity and distinctive sounds. But if you’re still working on the degrees of the major scale, moving on to the whole tone or diminished scales is more likely to frustrate you than help you.

    I would recommend focusing on the major scale (and optionally including the pentatonic and blues scales), then moving on to the natural minor (Aeolian mode, so a simple shift of the major scale) before working on the more unusual scales and modes.

    I haven’t mastered all the scale degrees yet and I want to practice on the whole tone and diminished scales. Should I start practicing the whole tone and diminished scales?

    #31466
    Profile photo of blanche_minim-2
    blanche_minim-2
    Participant

    Hi Chris,
    I followed your advice of not jumping to the whole-tone and diminished scales, instead I am working on the different modes until I get a good grasp of the major scale. I am not just hearing the scale degrees from do to do(octave), but I am also hearing it from re to re(octave) and so on.

    Right now I am working on the Chromatic scale, Blues, Dorian, and Ionian scales. You are right, I am frustrated with the Chromatic scale right now. I will be eventually working on all the modes until I get a good grasp of the major scale.

    For the Ionian scale, I finished all twelve keys and I made the rhythm into swing eighths. Now I am adding four more notes in the melody, so I am working on eighth successive notes in the melody in swing eight rhythm.

    Getting a good grasp of the major scale is an ongoing process. I still make a lot of mistakes and it takes a while to get consecutive correct answers.

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